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Post by Hydranis on Dec 18, 2014 13:44:44 GMT -5
I'm going to try and make this as quick and easy as possible, because I know without any doubt that my method for flurry of blows is the correct one. Right now we have two methods for how the flurry goes, and I will post each one as briefly as possible. For the purpose of these methods we will be using Matt's character which is a level 4 monk with a +1 str mod.
Sheltem's Method
FoB - Monk level (4) + str mod (1) = +5/+5. You're saying that he does not get the -2 penalty unless he makes an additional attack, which would come to be +5/+5/+3.
If this was correct, then when Rehgar was level 1, he could make three attacks at +2/+2/0 which would be extremely over powered, not to mention obviously broken. Why would you even bother using a regular attack at +1, when you could make three with a higher attack bonus?
Brian's Method
FoB - Monk level (4) = -2(flurry/Twoweaponfighting) + 1str = +3/+3. The -2 that is mentioned here: Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability). means that he will be getting a -2 for each attack, every time he uses his flurry. I believe you are trying to read too far into the use of the word "may" when it's much simpler than that.
I have also taken some time to speak with a few members of the Pathfinder Society and have come across a 100% agreement. I will post a few of their responses to back up my claims. I posted a similar explanation of our situation when I asked them about the flurry of blows for a level 4 monk with a +1 str modifier.
Zanthrax I'm not at all certain what exactly the second method is suggesting. Flurry of blows is an extra attack (or two or three extra at higher levels); that's the whole point. If you don't make extra attacks, you're not flurrying. And if you don't make an extra attack, neither your regular BAB of 3 or your psuedo-BAB of 4 would be high enough to allow you to make a second attack anyhow.
Actually, now I'm looking closer at what you've written and am becoming more confused. "Two attacks at +5/+5 with a third attack at +3/+3" makes me think that you're thinking that the character would have a +5 to hit and a +5 to damage for two attacks and then a third with a +3 to hit and +3 to damage? Because flurry doesn't affect damage at all, and you certainly don't have three attacks in a flurry at level 4.
For a single class monk, the table in the book makes it really simple. If you're flurrying, use the flurry column to see what the attack routine is - how many attacks with what bonuses. If you're not flurrying, use the regular BAB column to to see what your full attack routine is. If you're only making a single attack, you use the first number in the BAB column. Level BAB Other Stuff Flurry of Blows 1st +0 - -1/-1 2nd +1 - +0/+0 3rd +2 - +1/+1 4th +3 - +2/+2 5th +3 - +3/+3 6th +4 - +4/+4/-1 7th +5 - +5/+5/+0 8th +6/+1 - +6/+6/+1/+1 9th +6/+1 - +7/+7/+2/+2
Add your Str modifier, and everything else that's affecting your chance to hit as normal. So for your 4th level monk with a +1 Str mod, you can either make one attack at +4 or flurry for two attacks at +3 each.
Silentone89 Ok the stats are 4th lvl monk and a str mod of +1
Flurry of blows says to use a monks lvl as his bab. So his bab is now a +4. You add his str mod to make his attacks a 5/5 and then you take a -2 to each due to it being 2 weapon fighting. This makes your final result a 3/3 to hit.
If you look at the monk table it shows you what a flurry of blows looks like before other modifiers like str power attack defensive fighting weapon focus etc etc.
Neothelid Look at Table: Monk under the "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus" column. That shows you the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus consisting of adjusted BAB and Flurry penalties. That bonus does not include strength, enhancement bonuses, flanking, morale, higher ground, etc.
A level 4 monk has a Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus of +2/+2. This means you get two attacks, each at +2, not including strength. If you have 12 strength, then you make each of those two attack rolls at +3.
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Post by philo on Dec 18, 2014 14:52:41 GMT -5
The formula for a melee attack roll is usually:
BAB + Str Mod + 1d20
Flurry of Blows makes two changes to this formula:
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).
And
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level.
This makes the attack formula:
Monk Level + Str Mod - 2 + 1d20
The class table combines Monk Level and the -2 penalty into the column Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus. Giving you the formula:
Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus + Str Mod + 1d20
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Post by yunoplaywizard on Dec 18, 2014 15:26:40 GMT -5
Here's the confusion it dose say "For the purpose of these attack's, the monks' base attack bonus is equal to his monk level". (pg 57)
So that would be a +4 at fourth lvl
But it states "he makes one additional attack at a -2 penalty"
4th lvl characters have 1 attack. So you add another too your 1 attack.
So +4 (monk lvl) -2 (flurry of blows) = +2/+2
The chart (table 3-10 pg 58 core) is the amount the attack would be BEFORE other modifiers and with the extra attack.
Thus the monk adds his strength after this. In case here that's a +1.
So the final attack is +3/+3.
The chart is there to make everyone life easy.
If that weren't the case lvl 1 monk would be a +1/+1/-1 better then any others mêlée class in the game.
If that where true my name would be yyounoplaymonk?
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Post by grimlock on Dec 18, 2014 17:20:29 GMT -5
This argument is bullshit. Brian is GM, it is his call regardless.
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sheltem
Newbie
Rejected Applicant
Posts: 30
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Post by sheltem on Dec 18, 2014 18:10:30 GMT -5
There seems to be a great deal of confusion and misinformation on the topic of the Monk Flurry of Blows class feature. I'd like to clear some things up by comparing what I've heard vs what is stated in the text, and how two different methods impact the game.
The first interpretation considers the two-weapon fighting extra attack to be in-line with the chart of attacks, while the second interpretation does not, and considers these to be attacks in addition to the flurry of blows feature.
Before I begin I'll post the text:
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Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
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First Interpretation VS Text.
The first interpretation considers the additional attack as shown in the chart to be an additional -2/-2, and so forth. In fact, every attack by this interpretation is at a -2 when making a flurry. Additionally, the Monk receives more than one attack at 1st, 8th, and 15th levels.
In the following chart I will compare the numbers printed on the Monk class page, to the numbers that are written out for the two-weapon fighting additional attacks feature.
Original Flurry Chart Interpretation One Additional Attacks Chart
Level Attacks/Bonus Level Attacks/Bonus 1 -1/-1 1 -3/-3 2 +0/+0 2 -2/-2 3 +1/+1 3 -1/-1 4 +2/+2 4 +0/+0 5 +3/+3 5 +1/+1 6 +4/+4/-1 6 +2/+2 7 +5/+5/+0 7 +3/+3 8 +6/+6/+1/+1 8 +4/+4/-3 9 +7/+7/+2/+2 9 +5/+5/-2 10 +8/+8/+3/+3 10 +6/+6/-1 11 +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 11 +7/+7/+0 12 +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 12 +8/+8/+1 13 +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 13 +9/+9/+2 14 +12/+12/+7/+7/+2 14 +10/+10/+3 15 +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 15 +11/+11/+4/-3
Just by glancing at the chart, you can see the logic breaks down very quickly, no mention is made of the third attack gained in the original chart by level six, and by level 8, where there should be two attacks by the original chart, interpretation one gives only one additional attack. I did not bother finishing the chart as by level 15 you can already compare the glaring inconsistencies.
As for the attack penalties, should we be subtracting the two from the original 6th level attack, for a -3, or the current sixth level attack for a -1? Why even bother having a chart if you are going to make the player subtract 2 from everything? This seems to be a pointless step. At level one interpretation one seems solid, but the math breaks down very quickly into confusing and conflicting numbers. Interpretation one also glosses over or altogether neglects the text that states that this acts like the two-weapon fighting feat tree.
Interpretation Two
This assumes that the additional attack made during the flurry of blows is in addition to the attacks already made, and the penalty to the attacks only applies when the Monk wishes to make these additional attacks on top of his flurry. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat states:
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Applied to the Monk's flurry, he can be thought of as using both fists, swinging once with his primary and twice with his secondary. This gives us one decent attack and two inaccurate attacks.
Following the Two-Weapon fighting feat tree specified in the text, we need to include; 1) The first attack gained at level 1, which decreases all attacks up to and including this attack by -2 (N-2,, BAB-2) 2) The second attack gained at level 8 is done with a -5 penalty (N-2,, BAB-5) 3) The third attack gained at level 15 is done with a -10 penalty (N-2,, BAB-10)
*Where N = the bonus attack depicted in the flurry chart, *,, indicates iterate for all N
Below is the original chart compared to the interpretation 2 chart, with the monk using his his extra attacks where available. The text also states that the base attack bonus used for these attacks is considered to be the Monk class level, and will be shown totaled separately at the end of the attack string for clarity.
Original Flurry Chart Interpretation Two Additional Attacks Chart
Level Attacks/Bonus Level Attacks/Bonus 1 -1/-1 1 -3/-3 /-1 2 +0/+0 2 -2/-2 /+0 3 +1/+1 3 -1/-1 /+1 4 +2/+2 4 +0/+0 /+2 5 +3/+3 5 +1/+1 /+3 6 +4/+4/-1 6 +2/+2/-3 /+4 7 +5/+5/+0 7 +3/+3/-2 /+5 8 +6/+6/+1/+1 8 +4/+4/-1/-1 /+6/+3 9 +7/+7/+2/+2 9 +5/+5/+0/+0 /+7/+4 10 +8/+8/+3/+3 10 +6/+6/+1/+1 /+8/+5 11 +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 11 +7/+7/+2/+2/-3 / +9/+6 12 +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 12 +8/+8/+3/+3/-2 /+10/+7 13 +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 13 +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 /+11/+9 14 +12/+12/+7/+7/+2 14 +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 /+12/+9 15 +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 15 +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1 /+13/+10/+5
The second interpretation makes for an easy conversion when the monk wishes to trade accuracy for more attacks. The text specifically states that this acts like two-weapon fighting, which is shown here; we have our one decent attack and two weaker attacks as shown at level 1. Furthermore, we see why the base attack bonus is mentioned in the text - it is the basis of which the additional attacks is modified. This base attack bonus would also be used if the Monk wished to spend Ki - a limited resource - to make another additional attack on TOP of the flurry.
One would not add the monks standard or modified flurry base attack bonus to the flurry attacks, as this would make the monk vastly more accurate than any other class, and is also not supported in the text. As clearly stated in the text, the monk does receive his full strength bonus to all attacks, both damage and to-hit.
Looking at the combat strings, the outcomes make for an interesting trade-off for the monk, they still get one attack at their highest flurry bonus, with the rest of their attacks at a substantial disadvantage. Let us compare the level 10 with and without using extra attacks.
+8/+8/+3/+3 +8/+6/+6/+5/+1/+1
Clearly, there is more chance for the monk to roll a 20 with more attacks, but there are also more chances to roll a 1. Additionally, the Monk may decide that having 2 8's is better than having 1 8 and 1 6 against a heavily armored foe - the monk may need a very high roll to hit. This allows some versatility and choice for a class that is primarily focused on one mode of attack.
In any case, a level one Monk may either -1/-1 flurry or -3/-3/-1 flurry, which is in line with the other melee-focused classes.
Edited for clarity
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sheltem
Newbie
Rejected Applicant
Posts: 30
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Post by sheltem on Dec 18, 2014 18:25:28 GMT -5
This argument is bullshit. Brian is GM, it is his call regardless. Couple of points. 1) There is no argument, I am clarifying standard rules. 2) If Brian wishes to change the standard rules, that is his call. 3) Stay respectful or stay out of the thread.
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Post by philo on Dec 18, 2014 18:48:25 GMT -5
That attitude is bullshit, I'm not one to rant- but Brian did make GM decision for the night to continue play, then brought it to the boards to be discussed. If he didn't want to discuss it then he wouldn't have posted it and just said "NO, this is how its going to be" The reality of the situation is last night everyone was wrong, Sheltem was wrong about the bab- the way Brian explained it in this post is much more concise then last night. Also I'm 100% sure that the formula both he and I posted wasn't the one being used ( i.e. Brian said last night that the monk took an additional -2 penalty on the flurry of blows table, whether its what he meant to say or it was interpreted it wrong can be debated ) The initial miss-communication is where the problem started. Brian is a person, and he makes mistakes too, just because he is Gming the game doesn't mean he is infallible. If I believe he is making a mistake I should just roll with it because he is Gm? Fuck no I wouldn't. The result is what happened last night, which is the way it is supposed to work. Player raises issue, Gm makes decision to keep game moving, Issue is discussed later.
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Post by yunoplaywizard on Dec 18, 2014 22:53:52 GMT -5
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Post by Hydranis on Dec 19, 2014 10:08:48 GMT -5
Alright, a response to Sheltems chart to clear up a misconception. The reason that the flurry of blows gets a 3rd attack at level 6 is because on EVERY class in Pathfinder you get an additional attack after your base attack bonus reaches +6. For a fighter that's 6th level. A Druid is 8th level. A Sorcerer 12th level. When the Monk reaches level 6, his flurry base attack bonus now equals 6 because the text says that his base attack bonus for flurry is equal to his monk level. This is why his regular attacks don't get two attacks until level 8 because that is when his base attack bonus becomes +6.
Now, for your second argument this is where the text clearly shows how flurry works. It states that "he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls". So at level 1, his base attack bonus is a straight 0. If he uses flurry, he makes an additional attack with a base attack bonus of 1 (because of level) which would be +1/+1, but because its at a -2 the flurry would equal -1/-1. At 6th level, his flurry gains a 3rd attack due to the +6 base attack bonus prerequisite. The reason that this 3rd attack is at -1 is because, again, ALL PATHFINDER CLASSES have a 5 point difference between their primary attack and their second one. When a class gets it's second attack when their base attack bonus reaches +6, their second attack is always a +1 because it's a 5 point split. At 6th level the flurry is +4/+4/-1 and after simple math we find out that the -1 and +4 are split by 5 points.
At 8th level he gets another attack as though he had improved two weapon fighting(Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.) , which makes his 4th attack a +1 because 6-5=1.
At 11th level he gets a 5th attack because of the 5 point split, yet again, because when his 4th attack gets to +4 he will get the next one at -1 just like level 6 when his bonus for flurry was +4 and the next attack came in at -1.
At 15 level he gets yet another attack as though he had greater two weapon fighting (Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.) which is at +3 because 13-10=3.
I'm not entirely sure how much farther I can break this down. It's all written there.
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Post by Hydranis on Dec 25, 2014 0:26:02 GMT -5
Discussion closed and determined. Flurry of blows acts as it is supposed to in the book.
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